BRANDED
2:22 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Socialists can adapt and change as much as any other part of society. They didnt exactly reject growth and industrialisation.
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kips
2:15 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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There is appearing to be a new dawn for British Socialism. However the sun will l never rise fully on a socialist society until Labour revert back to their original core principles which incudes, amongst others, the original intent of "Clause 4"
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BRANDED
2:03 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Why would Labour want to detoxify? They have the most members if any Western European political party raking in the money. Labour councils have some of the most valuable assets on Earth. They're fucking rocking.
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Westham67
1:18 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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I don follow UK politics much but McDonnell sounds like a leader
Who would replace the austerity monger May,?
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Darlo Debs
12:49 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Kronic while i broadly agree with a lot of what you say, your blind faith this idea that the left will rise etc is really naive. Yes labour do have a huge membership (an anomaly for left wing parties in Europe right now), but that won't translate into votes across the electorate. which tends to be conservative or centre right.
I was arguing with a momentum supoorter who wasn't even bothered about winning the election, saying the focus should be on achieving class consciousness. In the meantime democracy suffers as there will be no-one trying to win an election to give a voice to the less well off and the less powerful. 360 and Mallard are right we need a new leader and soon.
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Mike Oxsaw
12:40 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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The two-party system appears to be about as much as most - even self-acclaimed "educated" people - can deal with.
Politically, there's the left (or it's equivalent), the right (or it's equivalent) and a bunch of loons neither side respects or feel worth categorising as "theirs".
The amount of media space each receives is a combination of both how many are in the group (spending power, basically) and how extreme your ideas are (scary to everybody else). Plus, of course, the papers need to sell themselves (they are, after all just businesses and NOT charities) to make a profit for the owners, so, in addition to reporting the news, they must "package" it for consumption.
Left or right thinking, they ALL do this for their target consumer.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
12:36 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Practically everyone who voted in the last election voted for Blairite/moderate policies.
You seem to be confusing a few thousand shouty Momentum types and the SNP with 'the electorate'
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The Kronic
12:32 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Threesixity is a Blairite/Centrist - a lost soul who, like all so called moderates, prefers to finger point rather than ask exactly why his ilk have been rejected by the electorate.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
12:29 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Noway had about the same amount of oil as the UK and less than a tenth of the population.
Anyone favourably comparing Norway's use of oil revenues with the UK's is a total bell-end, frankly.
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The Kronic
12:29 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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lowermarshhammer 11:37
How many times have you spewed anti Tory stories on here then?
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mallard
12:28 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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‘Both parties will benefit from a change of leader to detoxify their brands.‘
Spot on
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threesixty
12:20 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Willtell
It's a really tough situation at the moment in terms of voting. None of the parties represent the moderate Briton, who in my opinion is the majority in this country. Blair proved that one 3 times.
And if we cant get moderate it's rare if this country goes left wing. That hasnt happened for at least 40 odd years if that.
So although labour think they are set to win on a leftist message I bet they dont,. Corbyn is making the same mistake Theresa May did in the last election. She believed the opinion polls so much that she started attacking her own electorate.
It was the attack on pensioners own savings that killed her. And by the time she decided to track back it was too late. It was nothing to do with labour gaining, rather the Tories fluffling their lines and being arrogant.
Labour are doing the same with their base. Going all hard core when a lot of labours electorate that won for Blair were former Tories or Libs who arent that far left. A lot of the middle classes own shares, work hard, invest etc. and beleive in that capitalist model. Corbyn will freak them out.
Both parties will benefit from a change of leader to detoxify their brands. Labour more than Tories really.
I think if Kier Starmer took over I would actually consider voting for them.
Or if Cable left the Libs, maybe them.
I am sort of resigned to the fact that something drastic has to happen in politics as we have really lost the moderate part of politics. We are not all the same. Society is not full of homogenous people. So naturally we cant have extremes. The UK more than most countries have the best mix of everything, race, class, religion etc... (even though sometimes it may not feel like that).
We need a party to reinforce and represent that mix. Labour and Tories do not do any of that at present. Its truly a shame.
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The Kronic
12:19 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Willtell 11:33
You sad fucking gutless no mark.
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Willtell
11:39 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Correct lowermarshhammer. Well said...
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lowermarshhammer
11:37 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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I might indulge in a bit of good natured sledging of the opposition but I'll always applaud and congratulate where and when it's due.
Unlike the political tribes who refuse to accept that something the other lot might believe in might actually be better than one of their own ideas.
Politicians and their ultra loyal politics fan boys are fucking grim cases totally devoid of any knowledge of how the real world works and what the average punter has, needs, wants and aspires to be.
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Willtell
11:33 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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threesixty 12:19
OK so you admit that full on socialism doesn't work but an element of socialism applied to capitalism does. The real question is where the line is drawn and which of the 3 parties are best positioned to deliver it.
Liberal are lost in the wilderness with an elderly leader who seems to be a role model to Comma so no chance of him succeeding.
Corbyn & McDonnell are theorist neo-communists and should never be allowed anywhere near the reins of power. Look at McDonnell's speech that calls for the forcing of companies to give 10% shares to employees and the reaction from the Economist -
"What about the practical merits of Mr McDonnell’s ideas? There is an interesting debate to be had about companies giving workers shares. The argument against is based on diversification: you don’t want to hold shares in the company that also pays your salary. Just ask Enron’s employees about their Enron stock. The argument in favour is about motivation: there is some academic evidence that people work harder and strike less if they have an ownership stake in their companies. The John Lewis Partnership has done well out of this model (though its recent performance has been disappointing).
But so far Mr McDonnell’s ideas are badly worked out to the point of irresponsibility. The shadow chancellor’s blueprint fails three basic tests. It fails to respect property rights—what he’s advocating is essentially the expropriation of a significant quantity of shareholder wealth (what Mr McDonnell’s guru, Karl Marx, called “the expropriation of the expropriators”). This would cause a huge capital flight which would severely damage the British economy (which is one of the most globalised in the world) while ensuring that the shares that the workers were given would be of declining value. It would give control of shares to an ownership fund rather than to the employees. Mr McDonnell’s plan would do little to change employee incentives since employees would get such a small pay-off (£500) with the rest going to the taxman. Mr McDonnell seems to be more interested in raising taxes on corporations (which can easily move abroad) than he is on changing the wiring of capitalism. It also raises the possibility that Mr McDonnell’s scheme would turn into a British version of “black empowerment” by which the state appoints well-connected people to control investment funds and run companies.
Mr McDonnell has also failed to provide answers to crucial questions. How would his ideas apply to foreign-owned firms? Would UK-based staff get a tenth of all the capital of a multinational? And if so wouldn’t sensible multinationals immediately close down their British operations? How would the idea apply to firms which only have a small proportion of their employees in the UK (such as Rio Tinto, BP and HSBC)? Wouldn’t they be gone in a jiffy? And how would Mr McDonnell’s idea apply to foreign firms with British subsidiaries? What makes Mr McDonnell’s blueprint even more annoying is that there is a much easier way to increase share ownership: creating tax breaks for share awards.
Mr McDonnell deserves praise for presenting the closest thing to an actual idea to the Labour Party Conference. It’s a pity it’s such a dud."
Labour should wear the correct label - The Neo-Communist Party.
That leaves the Tories who are a bunch of elitist twats in the main but well intentioned because of the capitalist principles of freedom to succeed that is always absent in socialism.
But for all May's bumbling approach to Brexit they are the only party truly responding to the democratic wishes of Britain's electorate. Says it all really...
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White Pony
10:31 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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"I despise this tribal like loyalty to political parties which leads to pointless name-calling of the side that you don't support"
Exactly like supporters of the ESSEX cricket team.
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The Kronic
10:27 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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Shame
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lowermarshhammer
10:20 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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I still see there are plenty of Labour run councils with plenty of staff employed on zero hour contracts.
It's got nothing to do with reading 'Tory' press.
I despise this tribal like loyalty to political parties which leads to pointless name-calling of the side that you don't support.
Fact is they are all useless hypocritical cunts and really it's a matter of choosing between who is least likely to make a total utter fucking bollock up of everything they touch.
Personally I think Corbyn and his sixth former level politics commie chancellor mate are fucking idiots way beyond the usual political spectrum and if they got a sniff of power it would be a toal fucking bollock up beyond anything that I have ever experienced as an adult.
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BRANDED
10:02 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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,
We have a benefits and pension system that is paid by the current tax take at time of collection. We achieve this by ensuring we have a high tax take.
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The Kronic
9:49 Wed Sep 26
Re: Has Socialism Ever Worked?
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I see dimwits read a story in Tory rags and believe it to be fact.
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